Dems and Dem unions working to pass a tax on to the rich…I mean other working and middle class people (and as part of a real crap bill).

I’m hoping this alleged compromise turns out to be a mirage. What could Obama possibly offer the unions as compensation for such a massive sellout? Seems like it would have to be more than a temporary exemption.

DailyKos & TPM report no deal has been reached with unions nor has the House been made aware nor are they inclined to cave to Obama/Senate deal. Hah; we’ll see. If there’s a way to support their Corporate friends, Congress and the Admin. will work hard to find it.

I’ve been reading the posts here the last two days on this topic and I still can’t get my head around it.

Just seems like another case where we’re all sniping at each other instead of the assholes that’s doing this to us.

Employee Free Choice Act

This is stupid, and eventually the unions will encounter the surest cure for stupidity – extinction. They’ve accepted a deal that isolates them from the rest of the population, but will in the end tax them just as it does everyone else.

I think I’ve honored my last picket line.

This is looking really bad.

It’s only looking “really bad” if they agree to this crap.

It’s “really good” if this piece-of-shit bill goes down.

This whole kabuki is SO Rahm: get the participants to fight among each other and screw each other. “Win” for the Rahm/Obama team. Everyone else is fucked.

So unions apparently struck a deal to duck out of the excise tax. The tax itself won’t be significantly changed, but unions will have the opportunity to renegotiate their contracts to presumably evade a tax on their members’ health benefits.

Perhaps the unions are operating under the illusion that they’d be “negotiating” with wimps like Tim Geithner, and that he’ll be striking the “tough deals” he did with the banks, insurance companies, hedge funds.

They are in for a rude awakening at the bargaining table.

They can’t be this stupid. Can they???

Employee Free Choice Act

So the unions only get the bar lowered to expand membership if they agree to not demand better health care as part of bargaining?

The demands for the unorganized middle and working classes are throwaway demands, bargaining positions.

What’s going to happen here is the usual script, labor will be made an offer it cannot refuse, will buy into the deal and play the role of shin kickers of middle and working class folks who object to the deal on behalf of Obama, insurers and pharma.

This will surely motivate the base to vote in the Fall. /s
How do you say sold down the river in Villagese?

There should be another shoe to drop on this deal… this can’t be the whole thing.

They can’t be this stupid. Can they???

I don’t know about your specific example, but I do know that they’ve got to be pretty stupid indeed to believe that EFCA has any shot at passing. I’ve got better odds of having an intimate date with Miss America than they do of seeing EFCA passed IMO.

I, for one, am trying to nudge unions to wake up and get this right while they still have the chance.

Supposedly also no exise tax for anybody making under 200K a year. So then it would not affect the middle class.

I still think the unions are caving as usual. There should be no wiggle room. Looks like we’re also stuck with the mandate.

Sucks big time.

Especially since the WH has supposedly promised Congressional Dems “no controversial votes in 2010″.

That is not how it has worked historically. Unions fought for better working conditions for their members, and the gains they achieved were later applied to the general working population.

yeh. unions are notoriously stupid and clueless. EFCA has about as much of a chance of passing as I do of getting on my broomstick and flying to the moon.

(slaps forehead) D’oh!

My guess is that it’s another Wiener single payer amendment and Harry Reid public option situation. We’ll get you a vote on EFCA, we promise! And we’ll even push really hard to get it done for you because we’re really on your side and value your support. Followed by darn it but that odious Lieberman, Stupak, Nelson, whoever just won’t budge and there’s nothing we can do about it, but damn how we tried to get you what you wanted! If union leaders fall for that after seeing how it keeps going and hearing the Senate say flat out no more controversial legislation, they should lose their leadership positions. It serves them all right if the only way the middle class can get out from under this nightmare is to elect Republicans to repeal it.

It’s temporary because they won’t have to pay til 2017, then they will. Except new contracts will be in place by then, and the unions will trade “cat insurance benifets” for “higher pay”. No tax on insurance, but the workers can buy supplemental insurance with their extra pay. Nobody loses, except health care reform doesn’t get paid for.

The tax itself is what sucks though.

I mean a 38 year old internet multi-millionaire could buy the same, IDENTICAL insurance policy that a 58 year old self-employed struggling middle class person purchased and the multi-millionaire wouldn’t be taxed while the struggling middle class person would ON THE EXACT SAME POLICY.

THIS IS BULLSHIT!

I’ve got better odds of having an intimate date with Miss America

I dunno, OFG. You’re a pretty smooth talker.

It increasingly feels like we’re going to be steamrollered on just about everything from now on, health care being no exception. It appeared that Trumka and the unions were going to show some fight, but now it seems like there’s no one left anymore with any clout who shares our values and has the ability to implement or protect them. Feel free to tell me I’m being too pessimistic.

And again, how the hell does ANY progressive defend this and support this??

Damn this is a nightmare. All of 2008 I looked foreward to being able to cast my vote for Obama and a new D Senator from Virginia. And I get this nightmare?

Interestingly, the Excise Tax may be the only thing of real value to come out of this round of “health care reform”, (which has almost nothing to do with health care in America).

The real reason health care costs are going up is because third parties (insurance companies and government) are paying the bills. People don’t care how much health care costs if they’re not paying the bill, and in fact when they’re spending “insurance company” money, they want all they can get. Who cares if I need the services or not, I’m entitled.

At some point – I think it was after WWII – congress said employers could provide health care to employees “tax free”. An employee raise was cut into by added taxes, but a company could give employees great health insurance and write the whole thing off their taxes. And then we’re back to people not spending their own money on health care.

If the excise tax was applied to every company provided plan, people might start to care about $7 aspirin and other rising health care costs.

These reports are, probably, nothing more than a trial balloon. We’ll see.

As I said before, raising the threshold for the tax would buy temporary contentment from union members. However, as premiums rise (there is nothing in this bill to stop them from rising), the rank-and-file would be hit with the full tax, which is what Obama wanted in the first place. This is just kicking the can down the road so Obama can get his bill passed. What do the unions get in the bargain? Probably some BS promises about EFCA.

Obama has them in a bind. If they don’t go along, they’ll be seen as the ones who killed health care. If they do go along with the excise tax, they’ll be seen as betraying their members. This buys them time.

What has to happen is the House progressives have to stick together and refuse to vote for this piece of garbage bill.

But I’m not holding my breath for that. Pelosi will whip them into line.

The only good thing about this is that the rank and file does not follow its leadership on this type of stuff. If the unions think that leaving the non union middle class behind is a good move – well what can you say about something or someone so shortsighted. Obama is not going to pass EFCA regardless of what they do.

Hopefully progressives will stay home Jan 19th and a republican will replace Kennedy, hate to say it but this seems to be the only thing that will prevent us from being forced to become customers of AETNA.

Part of the reason that was true was that unions represented a large part of the work force. Today, they represent about half what they once did proportionally. It was also a product of how much employers had to compete for workers. In bad times, most folks are thankful to have a job. We’re in the bad times now, and will be for the foreseeable future.

So, in short, it’s not like history anymore.

This whole thing seems pretty ridiculous. It is amazing what they will do to protect the medical insurance industry which is nothing but a leech middleman. I think Im gonna go build a toll both and charge people to use the road. If I hire enough people and build enough toll booths will that make it a legit business. Apparently.

In the real world almost everyone has deductibles and co-pays now.
Making them higher is not going to magically make everyone better off.

If they’re counting on the Administration passing EFCA in a form the unions like, then they’re morons. It’s not going to happen, and they can threaten to not support Democratic candidates all they want, but no one’s going to listen. They did that this time, too.

I’d advise progressives to go to the polls and vote for Brown (the Republican). Staying home only counts as half a vote.

This deal smells like Rob “Dead Fish” Emmanuel. The “fish wrap scent” from the White House is permeating the country!

You’d think by now the unions would be immune to the bait and switch tactic. They have a lot of power if they’ll use it. By voting for Dems as the lesser of evils we have been rewarding bad behavior. The threat of withholding support won’t be taken seriously until we actually go through with it.

this would be ridiculous, add political suicide, well too late for that I guess

If by value you mean bending the curve far enough down that out of pocket co-pays exceed the amount that businesses will be willing to pay for their employees insurance then there is a lot of value here. If by value you mean that even fewer companies will even consider providing health insurance that’s there too. If by value you mean health costs go down simply because people get progressively worse because fewer people get adequate insurance this might be the plan.

If by value you mean health care will improve and health care costs will go down as more people are either bankrupted or die from lack of proper care they cannot affort, that has pretty much no chance of happening.

Just depends upon your definition of value.

The only thing that House progressives have ever shown a talent for is folding when we need them. They’ll do that this time, perhaps with individual exceptions.

The spelunker caucus, big time cave people.

I like it. May use it sometime, in fact …

What color is the sky in your world? I haven’t had health insurance that paid all the bills since about 1982, and I work for the Federal government.

When I began working for the Feds my insurance covered vision and dental as well — now those cost extra, and I can’t afford them. Thank Goddess my partner’s employer does give insurance coverage to domestic partners, so I get my dental/vision covered by their plan.

My deductible is so high I don’t go to the doctor any more, and my financial situation is currently so tight that I couldn’t even afford the $20 copay. I can barely afford the costs of my medications and most of them are generics. I won’t be seeing the dentist again until I’ve paid off the last extraction, with luck I’ll be able to go next year…

Being a member of the pink-collar ghetto is not fun.

Once again unions show just why they need the same complete leadership cleansing as Washington does. Too many fatcat union leaders, who don’t care about their members, just those dues. Things keep going at the current pace, this could turn into one giant revolt yet. Keep trying politicians!

I suspect Rahm as well, but it’s extremely irritating that they are conducting these “negotiations” behind closed doors when the outcome affects us all. Who specifically is bargaining with the unions? Surely not Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid. And I can’t picture Obama actually being there, let alone “rolling up his sleeves” and trading horses.

And it’s even more irritating that anyone from the White House decided to get personally involved to save the excise tax on the middle class come what may, but the couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger to save the public option. Not a finger.

What a bunch of jerks.

We must certainly find a way as citizens to pay these fellows back by opposing their every career ambition henceforth. No more votes or donations or time or effort from this source. Ever. Take me off your list.

I’m done worrying about this silly stuff, if they do these things, exempt unions, restrict women’s rights, fund hits on the backs of the middle class, they will be out of office before anything is implemented of that I have no doubt.

People do care about costs, but it is Obama who is trying to stick the bill on the middle class because he wouldn’t make the corporate lobbyists pay for it. There was all those deals with PhRMA, hospitals et al where the costs could have come down, but since Obama wanted to keep his corporate lobbyists happy, we get this excise tax to butcher the middle class in order to give it to those pounds of flesh to the corporate lobbyists. Things like the Dorgan amendment actually would have lowered costs, but instead this just gives us the same jacked up prices. The excise tax is explicitly designed to break Obama’s promise of people being able to keep their insurance plans if they like them.

How do you say sold down the river in Villagese ?

pragmatism

Hope and Pray Mass goes Red later this month and the entire clusterfvck goes down in corporate flames. Though I’ve been one all my life and may still be (sent the registration change form in last week) I HATE the democrats now… Absolutely hate them. I will never vote for one of those backstabbing Aholes (unless its a Kucinich… very rare breed) again. Where is my third party? Bring it on

Where’s the Citizens’ Lobby? Where’s the organization to represent “the rest of us” in these negotiations? Don’t we have someone there to bribe the politicians on behalf of the voting taxpayers? Who don’t belong to unions? And aren’t rich?

A bad bill just got worst. Obama and his agents of change are nothing less then sell outs. Rahm will sell out and then retire in isreal. A very rich man

broadly, Mr Trumka could easily face the same disillusionment by his base that POTUS is with his

jesus christ, I’d hate to find out his ‘race’ speech was a mere rhetorical, sloganeering trick like that of Obama when he invoked his mother and her suffering as a matter of pure political expediency – but here it comes

yes, I believed in these guys – wrongly thinking they saw this fight as I did – an opportunity to flex the muscle of a resurgent Labor movement

That’s why Obama said that his HCR process would be transparent with everything televised on C-SPAN in order to scam people into voting for him. Transparency chases away the roaches and so we’ve been given opacity in order to get a roach infestation at the White House. Obama as well as those in Congress know they aren’t negotiating for the people behind closed doors, which is why they want to keep us in the dark. Look at Coakley with how she flew to Washington to hold a “unity” event with corporate healthcare lobbyists as she considers corporate lobbyists her real constituents like Obama and others who want to foist corporate serfdom onto the middle class.

I was a Teamster and a union machinist and a union meat cutter back in the day. Labor had a seat at the right hand of power in the party in those times. But this is now. Bill Clinton and the DLC kicked us to the curb with NAFTA. Labor is still a red headed step child to the Democrats. The chances of getting card check from Obama’s Democratic Party are slim and none. Trumka should be in discussions with the Greens, suggesting they change their name to The American Labor Party.

SOLIDARITY

Your right. Add Forcing people to buy a defective product from monopolies and you have a real loser. It just shows everyone how completely bought the so called Dem. party is.

All but the sub 70 democrats (IQ that is) see Obama for exactly what he is… A backstabbing liar and corporate stooge. He’s the biggest pig-n-a-poke to have ever been elected to office and should be impeached for pathalogical lying on the campaign trail … hell …. pathalogical lying when ever he opens his mouth for that matter. Democrats had better pray these bills goes down because if they don’t, they’re finished for atleast a generation.

..but to beat them in 10 and 12 we are going to have to be able to fight Wall Streets bail out of Obama
“There can be no daily democracy without daily citizenship.” – Ralph Nader

“The real reason health care costs are going up is because third parties (insurance companies and government) are paying the bills. People don’t care how much health care costs if they’re not paying the bill, and in fact when they’re spending “insurance company” money, they want all they can get. Who cares if I need the services or not, I’m entitled.”

Yeah, right, moral hazard, blah, blah, blah.

Please explain this: if third parties paying the bills is what drives up our costs, why is it that Canada, Great Britain, France, Switzerland, and the rest of the industrialized world, all of whom have much better insurance than we do, all of whose citizens pay much, much, much less of their own money out of their pockets for health care than we do, all of whom therefor have much greater “moral hazard” than we do, have much lower systemwide costs than we do?

All the data points to the “incentives” in third party insurance being either an irrelevant factor in systemic health care costs, or even the opposite of what you claim. The industrialized country in which people spend far more of their own money and far less of someone else’s money on health care than any other country is the country with by far the highest costs in the world. Please explain how this is possible.

The real issue is that our system relies on exactly the wrong institutions to spread risk. For profit companies make money by avoiding, minimizing, or shirking risk, and must demonstrate profit on a quarterly basis. That’s precisely the opposite of what “insurance” is supposed to be — pooling risk across large populations over long periods of time.